When Hyeon Go was describing to Damdeok about how Baekje was divided into East and West Baekje in Episode 13 of Tae Wang Sa Shin Gi before their attack, I couldn’t help but wonder after they showed a map of Bakeje territory. Grabbed a screenshot of the clearest frame I could get.
The map as shown in the screencap shows the map that we knew all along, Baekje bordered by Shilla, Kaya and Goguyreo. What is weird is West Baekje is actually across the sea and occupies parts of East China.
And being the history buff that I am, I went and wiki information on Baekje and got the map below which showed that Baekje only had territory on the Korean penisular. Similar searches for information about West Baekje and maps yielded the same results. Everything was similar but West Baekje was not reflected.
Although controversial, some Chinese and Korean records indicate that Baekje territory included parts of present-day China, across the Yellow Sea. You can read about the history records on this in Wikipedia.
After defeating Goguryeo in 371, Baekje had become a dominant power in East Asia, whose influence was not limited to the Korean peninsula. That state’s King Geunchogo seized several coastal cities of China, notably in Liaoxi and Shandong, to retain its superiority over Goguryeo and a variety of southern Chinese dynasties, which had arisen within the context of extended civil wars caused by the fall of the Han Dynasty in 220 CE and the concomitant invasions of foreign tribes, including but not limited to the Xiongnu and Xianbei (Wu Hu). This was from Gwanggaeto the Great of Goguryeo Wiki.
I also posted the question on forums and this was the answers I got.
Answered by dramaok @ soompi forums
YES you’re right. this is controversial, but as is according to TWSSG, there is indeed West and East Baekje, which are divided by Bohai/Balhae sea. West Baekje (better known as Dae-Ryuk Baekje for Continent Baekje) would be present day Hebei, China (you know, Qingdao beer ^^). because China denies this, and Korean records that directly link to it are destroyed or missing it is very controversial and most ppl only refer to Baekje as just that, the kingdom near present day Seoul and Incheon of South Korea.
However, on closer examinations of both Chinese and Korean records, and Western scholarship, there has been many indirect links to the existence of a West Baekje, which was even greater in geography and population.
For example, Chinese scholar/librarian 宋書 recorded “Baekje is west to Yo-Ha river”.
This is another map which I got from jebusrocks @ China History Forum.
And this map shows that Baekje might have indeed splitted into West and East Baekje at the peak of its powers. So regardless whether they established permanent settlements or a few military outposts since no Baekje artifacts were found from there or not publicised by the Chinese authorities, it is true that Baekje did exert some control over parts of China sometime in the 4th century.
So despite Tae Wang Sa Shin Gi being a pure fantasy television drama, it may have some merit in not twisting history in this area. History is fascinating.
Coolsmurf Domain 
wow. Im chinese and have no idea about this =D
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
Idetrorce, you have a different opinion? what’s your take, i am interested to know…
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Ha, that last map is a riot. Shouldn’t really trust sources that have “Sea of Korea” or divide Japan up as a Korean colony. Seems like nothing more than a PC banger’s fantasy.
No as a korean it’s not right to say sea of japan
it is right to say sea of korea. and baekje colonized japan
even western china korea was a very great country in ancient world, Japan? nothing to us. even China, by King Gwanggeto
they were beaten up and lost manchuria so sea of japan is not correct it is sea of korea. I just hate Japanese
I found some information on wikipedia.
(Baekje / presence on continent)
According to the Book of Song, “Goguryeo came to conquer and occupy Liaodong, and Baekje came to occupy Liaoxi (遼西) (in modern Tangshan, Hebei); the place that came to be governed by Baekje was called the Jinping District, Jinping Province.”[6] The records of Book of Jin on Murong Huang states that the alliance of Goguryeo, Baekje, and a Xianbei tribe took military action.[7] The Samguk Sagi records that these battles occurred during the reign of King Micheon of Goguryeo (309-331).
According to the Book of Liang, “during the time of Jin Dynasty (265-420), Goguryeo conquered Liaodong, and Baekje also occupied Liaoxi and Jinping, and established the Baekje provinces.”[8]
The Zizhi Tongjian, compiled by Sima Guang (1019-1086) of the Song Dynasty (960-1279), states that in 346, Baekje invaded Buyeo, located at Lushan, and as a result the people of the country were scattered westward toward Yan.[9] That year was the first year of the King Geunchogo’s reign (346-375) in Baekje.
*Yawn* Half of your sources is from wikipeidia, which I have to say is not very reliable. I remember reading about how silk was invented in Korea on the wiki.
Also that last map, I can even make a map like that now on photoshop, how is that proof? Like you said, no artifacts were found. Also, it only seems to be the Koreans that are saying all of this and backing it up. I’ve heard nothing outside of Korea. There’s also tons of speculation and assumptions derived from these texts people are quoting.
I’m not saying it’s not true. It could well be that the Chinese are not publicizing it. It’s just that there aren’t any good, reliable, UNBIASED and concrete evidence. Unless there’s some concrete proof I’d have to dismiss it.
You are right, it is “just” wikipedia.
But I wonder if the sources “Book of Jin”, “Book of Song”, “Book of Liang” and “Zizhi Tongjian” are reliable.
The author quotes them, but they are only in chinese.
I just watched this last night and I looked it up too.
While I do not trust wikipedia or majority of websites that do not have published credits to back up on information, you need to remember that the winner writes the history.
Very often, the conquers destroy history.
While I ponder about this history, I do know that a few Chinese Dynasties are established by people referred as Korean descendants (or simply Mongolians).
I believed that Japan actually accepts the fact that their royal bloodline does not Baekje blood in them
Yes, very interesting indeed. I think if you study Baekje’s history and their artifects, you will be surpirse how advanced they were. It’s sad to see they are just part of the history books.
Don’t forget, Baekje came from early days of Koguryo royal line (aka Jolbon-Buyeo), first capital of Baekje was called Buyeo. So you know how important Buyeo for Koguryo & Baekje. In native words, Koguryo is aka as Kuri or Kori and Baekje is kura or Kuda, and Shilla is aka as Silla, Sinna, Seola, hence today’s Korean capital is named Seoul from Seolabol (This is also name of Silla’s capital).
Some Koreans scholars believe Korea should adopt native Korean names for these ancient states: Kori, Kura, Kara (karak or Kaya) & Silla.
And for the Baekje’s territories that once existed on Eastern China (Shandong) isn’t just myth, but it was only very short lived territory as it quickly fall to Chinese dynasty. Just think of as like temporary port trading colonies.
When i see a conflict over history between Korea and Japan/Russia/China, i usually tend in favor of Koreans. But, trust me, this map is just a HUGE joke.
I’m not saying Baekje didn’t have any territories in China but it is clearly oversized, as is Koguryo here. And the most incredible part is the way they divided Japan. There was no Korean colonies in Japan. I know Koreans suffered from Japanese colonies but changing history this way is just nonsense.
I didn’t know buyeo occupied that much space.
ok I dont much about anything but i am very interested in reading and studying about Pre Ancient Korea – history 7000 CE through establishment of three kingdom period. anyone have places I can go find out about it? or does nayone know about it? I have found some info but some of course is contrary to others and very limited.
I am american, not chines or Korean or japanese
Ha, you Koreans are soooo funny!
As a country which is occupied, controlled, or even obused by both China and Japan for more than 2000 years from 200BC~1945AD, and then is greatly influenced by the US and Soviet Union until now. You even need 4 other countries (the US, Russia, China and Japan) involve in your own national business, you must know your history is not that glorious.
I am not here to tell you that you had a very sad history. I just hope you guys could wake up from your own dreams.
I am not sure how’s the education like in your country. But you just cannot keep stealing other countries’ history and culture.
SUCK ME DRY KUMA. You ASS!
Let me tell you about YOUR sad existence… When Korea was established already as an advanced cultural society, japan was just a measly tribal settlements with simple cast system. Through only thing the japanese peasants were good at, stealing, they hijacked cultural advancements of Koreans (i.e. Baekje’s industrial and agricultural techs) and have labeled it their own. Which is understandable considering the limitations of their aptitude and natural tendency to be arrogantly ignorant. What bothers educated individuals the most is the fact that japan’s line of royalty has Beakje’s royal blood flowing through them. In stating that native japanese people had control over any part of Korea is just what the intellectuals of your own country want you, peasants, to believe so that they may stabilize their power over the peasants (YOU). In reality, the occupation of Korea was a sad attempt by the surviving bloodline of Beakje’s royalty to reclaim their once lost kingdom from Shilla Dynasty. So, getting back to your peasent like statements, I hope you can learn from what i have generously educated you on, Shitstuffer! Yeah U…dont look around, i’m talking to you buddy, shitsucker…read some books.
The last map is total bs. I doubt baekje could even hold on to chinese cities beyond the coast. With such a small population, how would they fund and resource their troops so far away from home?
Goguryeo stopped way before taking Eastern Siberia, and I’m pretty sure Buyeo was a civilised kingdom, and it most certainly did not thrive in the barbarian steppe of siberia.
Point from before: With such a small population, how would baekje conquer so much of japan and hold it? I can understand if they conquered western kyushu but half of honshu? Very unlikely..
And what the hell is Suao Jien? Sounds fake to me. Never heard of such a country in China’s history. If he meant Westen Jin, its not possible because those coasts were definitely under china’s control during that period.
And cmon, everyone knows the ainu were under their own control for all their history.. If Goguryeo conquered them in hokkaido, why isn’t it recorded in their folktales or lore?
This problem irked me further because i saw a trailer for the kbs drama king geunchogo. Ultranationalistic depictions defile the essence of the plot. At pne part Geunchogo is seen as dreaming to conquer eastern China, Western Honshu, And all of manchuria and korea.. Now I’ll never get to watch it. It’ll be Just like Immortal Yi Sun Sin. Pure propaganda with no good plot and only minor references to historical facts.
Ridiculing our great generals like Li Rusong by making him an idiot in your dramas. Making Chen Lin incompetent and corrupted.
Bloody Koreans have no respect for your old allies or new enemies. Just like in the korean war. When the chinese fired, the Americans ducked. When the Americans fired, the chinese ducked. But when the koreans fired, Every Fucker ducked!
Stop pretending that you ruled here! You didn’t.. you know why? We LIVE here! As we have for ages, and there has been no record of a korean invasion. Don’t talk about a mass burning of records that could have hidden such a case from current academians because you and I both know that you’re just appearing to be even more naive by suggesting that. Aren’t you proud enough of your own history? What’s there not to love about korean history. Goguryeo wiped the Sui army out, and Joseon fought back the Japanese. Yi Sun Sin is the best admiral in the history of man kind. What more do you need that isn’t already god given?
Or has the years of slavery and torture and lack of independence after the fall of Silla made you people so greedy for historical superiority that you have all resorted to cultural and territorial plagiarism?
First of all, Beakje did have colonies in Japan. There was not even government in Japan untill 400 AD. Baekje brought iron, buddhism, and other cultures to japan and the crown price also came and governed the provinces in japan. Plus, Baekje retained the proivince of liaoxi and jinping for over 100 years and also had a colony( more of trading post) in Philippines. In addition, the Kaya people governed a number of japanese islands, and Okinawa. Basically, baekje was a sea empire much like phoneticians and Portuguese.
You say that there is no evidence but there are remnants of baekje culture in places as far as north vietnam and taiwan. Also, it is written in chinese records and several names of provincial governors in east china have had baekje names.
The reason much of this is not known to the western world is because the japanese completely fabricated much of korean history during its occupation. There was even a seperate department of historians aimed at distorting korean history to make it inferior to japan and to kill korean idenity, making japan look like the best country in east asia Thus, many relics were destroyed, and those that weren’t destroyed were stolen by japan where japan claimed some of korean ancient culture for their own.
Thus, Korean history is faced by China on one side that is trying to undermine Kogureyo history and trying to make it into CHinese history, and Japan on the other side that claims that Kaya was Japanese ( when in reality it was Kaya that governed parts of Japan, and Japan gave up its efforts in this field after it was obvious) and undermine the supremacy of Baekje in its sea-based empire.
Given that the japanese historians were the first to report the western world of East asian history, it is small wonder that most people have a skewed version of East asian history coming from the japanese solely. Still, korean archeologists are making progress slowly but surely, in uncovering the true extent and achievements of the Korean ancestors.
So the bottom line is, keep your mind and ears open and dont be so conservative and inflexible. Don’t be like, “oh, how come i’ve never heard of this before? so it must be false” That’s just an excuse to ignore the newly discovered truth.
Ryan…….Even the American History textbooks say that there was no organized government in Japan untill 400 AD. Think about it, why should there be a korean invasion to make parts of Japan Baekje territories when the Japanese are busy being awed by shining iron Baekje armour while the japanese were in tribal villages without knowledge of anything sharper than stone? You’ve got the perspectives wrong man.
In The Western island of Japan, many of the villagers still worship a god who was the king of the region, and who was actually the governor sent by Baekje to govern the area.
Also, btw, there ARE records of swift and powerful men on horseback with iron weapons crossing over to japan before 400 AD.
I feel your annoyance, but how can you block the sun with your hand? There is nothing wrong with having been korean colony .
Actually, Southern Japan was under Baekje rule. The people in that region themselves know this, and in fact embrace it. They have parades that cheer for the Baekje king that first found the place.
And, trash talking doesn’t prove anything. Eastern China was indeed partly in Baekje’s hands. The Chinese wrote about it themselves. Not to mention the fact that Chinese people always try to change their own history to fit their needs. For example, they consistently claim Goguryeo was Chinese. Nonsense! So, they’ve extended their Great Wall further into Manchuria now days, even over the Cheolli Janseong Wall that faced China to protect Korea from Chinese soldiers. If anyone was making this up, it was China.
Do you realize that for a good time, China had no power in North-East Asia? Don’t let present maps fool you. Chinese people originated from the South, nearby Vietnam and expanded northward.
And come on now, what’s wrong with the fact that Koreans did for a time have Manchuria, eastern China, and southern Japan? Oh, so it’s okay to say China had so much territory, but nobody else can, eh? After all, China had sent a million man army to Korea, and came back crying with 2,700 men left, partially causing the downfall of the Sui Dynasty. If Korean could do that, what makes you think that Korea cant take the offensive? Do you have real solid proof that legitimately denies it?
Hey, I understand where your coming from, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying China was a disgusting nation and Japan were full of barbarians. No. But, I am saying that Korea was more powerful than it was given credit for.
I’m an American who is a history buff. I’ve read more about European history. I do have a good understanding of cultures and backgrounds. Just watched a YouTube video – Korean History, Korean Civilization, China’s History Distortion, 한민족문명 (1/8) (English). Don’t know if this is similar to your topic, but I learned from this video. Great post! Good job.
Eastern part of china did belong to Korean Baekje Kingdom. China is superficial state. There is no such thing called China or Han-Chinese. Han-Chinese is terminology racial and cultural mixed between Koreans, Mongols, Manchurians, Asian Turkish all Altaic People that conquered the land and culture of Continent.
According to the Book of Song, “Goguryeo came to conquer and occupy Liaodong (遼東), and Baekje came to occupy Liaoxi (遼西) (in modern Tangshan, Hebei); the place that came to be governed by Baekje was called the Jinping District, Jinping County.”[3]
The Territory Section of Mǎnzhōu Yuánliú Kǎo (满洲源流考, “Considerations on the Origin of Manchu”) also summarizes Baekje’s territories, obviously including a portion of Liaoxi:[9]
The boundary of Baekje begins from the present-day Guangning and Jinyi provinces in the northwest and then crosses the sea in an easterly direction to arrive at the Joseon’s Hwanghae, Chungcheong, Jeolla, etc. provinces. Running east to west, Baekje’s territory is narrow; running north to south, it is long. Thus it occurs that if one looks at Baekje’s territory from the Liucheng and Beiping area, Silla is located in the southeast of Baekje, but if one looks from the Gyeongsang and Ungjin area of Baekje, Silla is located in the northeast. Baekje also borders Mohe in the north. Its royal capital has two castles at two different places in the east and west. Both castles are called “Goma.” The Book of Song says that the place governed by Baekje was called the Jinping district of the Jinping province. Tong-gao says that the Jinping province was located between Liucheng and Beiping of the Tang period.[10]
Korean Korguryo Kingdom: ( Manchuria)
Korean Baekje Kingdom: ( Kansai, China)
Geography lesson: Liaoxi is in Manchuria, not Eastern China, and the ambiguous records indicate Baekje might have held the territory for all of a hundred years.
And people like askkorean1 is the reason Korean nationalists are a joke and are better called Korean imperialists. Maps from Goryeo and Joseon show that Korea hasn’t extended north of the peninsula for more than a thousand years. It’s basically a giant land grab attempt. Saying the Han Chinese doesn’t exist is part of the strategy, since only if the Han Chinese and China do not exist can Koreans claim any of the territory.
They’re just as bad as the Imperial Japanese were – how ironic. But I guess people shouldn’t be surprised since Koreans were never that different from Japanese according to them. Both have the same incurable greed for continental land.
Thomas, if you disagree with other people opinion. Keep it too yourself. Don’t call people ” Imperialist”. Korean Korguryo and Balhae Kingdom did cover all of Manchuria like it or not. In Korean we call ” Kando Region”. Kando did belong to Koreans as well Daemado Island. If you cannot accept the truth. Then don’t call people Imperialist.
Right, because only people who agree with Korean ultra-nationalists like yourself should be able to speak. How ironic.
People like you are the first to bitch and moan whenever someone attacks Korean territorial integrity (ie Goguryeo), but when it comes to Chinese territorial integrity -> “China doesn’t exist.” You want others to keep their opinions to themselves, but when it comes to your own opinions, you can’t seem to shut up. What a hypocrite.
So no, I won’t keep my opinions to myself. You’re an ultra-nationalist/imperialist. Don’t like it? Too bad.
Here, watch the documentary.(7 parts)
With its evidence about Baekje’s remains in china and japan, it will make you think.
It is important to note that during Japan’s occupation of Korea, an entire department was created by the japanese aimed in distorting and destroying the high points of korean history.,digging up burial mounds and confisicating the artifacts and hiding them in Japan’s mainland.
Japanese even took some aspects for their own,, I saw some undeniably korean buddhist paintings
I saw some undeniably korean buddhist paintings hung up on the Japan section of the Metropolitan Art Museum.
Japan still has hundreds of reported Korean relics and entire libraries of korean history confiscated in Japan today.
In the other hand, the Chinese were masters of censoring beginning from the book burnings of Qin Shi Huang onwards. In much of Chinese written text, the emperors changed the names of surrounding kingdoms every time the emperor changed to make it look like China was the center of the world. In their text, it even describes British ambassadors as paying tribute to the QIng Dynasty.
Thus, it is an astronomical miracle that we have been able to gather the remains, records and evidence that is available to us so far. And honestly, it is more than enough to prove the existance of continental Baekje and Japan’s subordination, if not belonging as a part of Baekje. .
More and more evidence of this is being unearthed every year. Therefore, it is best to not adhere to what the Japanese and Chinese historians have been trying to feed to the world. I have only recently seen books published directly showing Baekje territory including the Liaoxi and Shandong.
Keep your ears open, is what im trying to say. Please dont be offended and feel free to criticize me AFTER watching the entire 7-part video I liked .
Oops i realized that link shows vid directly. Enjoy, heres the rest.
Concerning Imperialism
Imperialists :
All the White guys Plus Japan
Imperialees
All the Africans, Asians, Indians, Middle Easterners, Latinos, Minus Japan
How could Korean be imperialists like Japan thomas? Dont make sense
Wow, youtube videos from the ultra-nationalist Cheon1Son who believes in the Hwandan Gogi. You sure are convincing there.
Just because fringe Korean writers think that Korea ruled Asia 7,000 years ago and started all civilizations doesn’t mean it’s accepted anywhere else in the world. Japanese and Chinese historians may distort history but so do Korean historians. The Korean-centric revisionism that’s going on in Korea right now is nothing but an expression of its wounded nationalism, as pointed out by the Korean American historian Hyung Il-Pai.
Name one respected Western scholar who supports these “theories” of eastern China and southern Asia being colonies of Baekje. You can’t, because no one does. If you want to be specific about it, the only thing that could possibly be supported is that Baekje held Liaoxi (a part of Manchuria) for about a hundred years.
Brian said it best in far fewer words:
“Ha, that last map is a riot. Shouldn’t really trust sources that have “Sea of Korea” or divide Japan up as a Korean colony. Seems like nothing more than a PC banger’s fantasy.”
“Concerning Imperialism
Imperialists :
All the White guys Plus Japan
Imperialees
All the Africans, Asians, Indians, Middle Easterners, Latinos, Minus Japan
How could Korean be imperialists like Japan thomas? Dont make sense”
Imperialism isn’t limited to the 19th century.
What Korea is doing right now – claiming that parts of other people’s countries were their colonies – is an expression of cultural imperialism.
Korean nationalists shout “imperialism” whenever China/Japan claim that certain kingdoms based in Korea were Chinese/Japanese, but never consider that what they’re doing is exactly the same. Draw a map of ancient China or Japan that includes parts of Korea and Korean nationalists scream bloody murder, but other people are supposed to be silent when Korea does the same?
Hypocrisy.
Study and Read Korean History. Korean Peninsula and Manchuria are connected by People, Culture, and History. Nothing to do Nationalism. Telling you Korean Historical Truth.
Do you mind stating the source and reliability of the map from jebusrocks, as well as the time frame that this map is supposed to be representing.
Unfortunately in China, Korea, and Japan historical “truth” is too often determined by borders. However, there are some fantastic scholars in all three countries that do research not based on nationalistic pride. In East Asian academic sholarship Korea’s unique influence on Japan is generally accepted as a historical fact. King Seong of Baekje is usually attributed as sending a mission to the Yamato in 552 that introduced Buddhism. What is almost universally not accepted is that Korea held vast areas of Japan or Eastern China. Were there areas in which Korea had a strong influence? Certainly. Baekje “may” have controlled a very small portion of the Shandong penninsula, yet their historical remains and capitals are in and around Seoul, Gongju, Buyeo, and Iksan. Travel to Shandong peninsula is permitted, and the historical remains of this region just do not show strong evidence of being part of the Baekje dynasty. In Japan it is acknowledged by the Royal Family that they have some Baekje blood in the royal line. While this is true the Baekje nobilty that came to Japan did not resurect or establish an extenstion of the Baekje dynasty, instead intermixing with the Japanese nobility and what followed was a Japanese kingdom with Baekje cultural influences.
In ancient East Asia, China was long considered the eldest brother (or father), Korea the middle brother, and Japan the youngest brother. In diplomatic relations Korea was considered by China as their most enlightened neighbor. However, in the late 16th century the entire East Asian historical fabric began to shift. Toyotomi Hideyoshi harbored dreams of conquering Ming China and even India. His dream was one of a vast Japanese empire. He planned his invasion which would pass through Korea to attack China. The Joseon dynasty being a close ally to the Ming dynasty would not allow the Japanese to travel unhindered though their territory. This led to the Imjin War, where Japan reeked havoc on Korea and was eventually stopped by Korea’s powerful Navy, a huge Ming army, and peasant guerilla activities against the Japanese. Concluding the war, Ming China officially recognized Japan and Korea as equal for the first time in their peace treaty. Though Hideyoshi’s forces retreated back to Japan, Ming China was weakened and eventually fell to the Manchu in North China. Korean territory was devestated and Joseon dynasty became more isolated after the fall of their close ally. This isolation eventually led Korea to become labeled as the so called “Hermit Kingdom” in the 19th century.
Coming to the issue of Goguyeo, there is very strong historical evidence that their boundaries extended well into Manchuria. However, the map shown by (jebusrocks) would be more accurate in showing spheres of influence by Korea’s ancient dynasties, not actual territory. The Goguyeo capital was located in Jilin, China by the North Korean and Chinese border, and it eventually moved to modern day Pyongyang. This basic historical fact shows that the early Goguryeo dynasty controlled large areas of Manchuria, but there is no evidence that Goguryeo controlled “all” of Manchuria.
What is important here is that China, Korea, and Japan have a long rich history worthy of more research. I have been to all three countries, and spent much time particularly in China and Korea. I love learning more about all three countries, and their complex relationship over more than 2,000 years. By the way I am American, and have a degree in East Asian History. I would like to consider myself as unbiased, but who can ever be completely 100% objective.
*I included a link to my Flickr account of a collection of nearly all of my personal photos of historical remains of the ancient Baekje capitals.
There you go, someone who is not a deluded Korean (or any other kind of) ultra-nationalist like askkorean1 talking about Korean history. Thanks Kyle.
According to the History of Paekche book by Jonathan Best, under the second part (translation of the Baekje Annals in Samguk Sagi), the entry for AD 392 clearly states that Gwanmiseong and Sokhyonseong etc (the ten Baekje cities captured by Gwanggaeto/Damdeok) are ON THE KOREAN PENINSULA, at Baekje’s northern border with Goguryeo at the time.
According to a Korea tourism website, Gwanmiseong is the same as Odu Mountain Fortress, and it is located at the seacoast, near the mouth of the Imjin River (refer to the small map showing Goguryeo’s southern expansion on page 34 of Atlas of Korean History).
In addition, I also scanned King Geunchogo’s section in the Annals (in Best’s book) and there is no mention of any Baekje settlement in Liaoxi or Shandong in China. Hope this info helps.
Rex, they are all recorded in a book called . Nowadays, in Shandong peninsula and nearby region, king of Baekje’s tombs has been excavated. Actually, there’s an evidence that prooves that Baekje was bigger than the map there. It’s the fact that I saw one person who asked people in Baotou, China and they said it used to be part of Baekje Territory. There were also buses which had two letters “Baek Je”. Actually, Chinese has already begun a project to destroy Corean history and make them into their history since 1996. Many of the Goguryeo and Baekje artifacts are getting destroyed though it was made with a scientific knowledge of having them last for thousands of years!
I disagree of what you just said on August 18, Thomas. Chinese are about to finish a project to destroy the Corean history and Japan is starting to put their imperialism into their textbooks. For Corea, it’s just that few people are making an opinion. Plus, there are lots of archaeological facts that supports them. During the time when Corea was part of a colony of Japan, Japanese burned 300000 Corea’s history books. It shows that lots of Corea’s historical evidence has been disappeared at that time.
The book I was talking about on the top was
Samguk Sagi
I add again, most recently, many artifacts are being excavated, in East and Northeastern China and the government there are just trying to hide the fact that there are. That is why it couldn’t be introduced by many people in the world.
I see some people say there aren’t any evidences that eastern China was Baekje’s colony. Well, let’s review the facts. First those Chinese history books like Book of Song. They CLEARLY state that Baekje held territories in China. If you deny this, either those historical authors were idiots who liked to lower their country and praise Korean history, or those facts WERE REAL. Duh. Those history books are wildly used even today people. Oh, also. Name a western historian that approve this? Well we can’t because they unfortunately don’t care about Korean history and don’t study it! Why? Because Korean history is crappy? No. Because Chinese and japanese distorted our history so much and advertised so much wrong facts about Korea to the west that people think Korea was Chinese and Japanese colony all the time. If Chinese and Japanese government did not distort Korean history so much, I probably could name 100s of historians who would believe in Baekje’s Chinese east coast colonization.
Oh yeah, by the way. How is even Chinese history that great? There was only like 4 properly united Chinese dynasty in history. Han, Jin, Sung and Ming. Out of those Sung has embarrasing history, no doubt. Xia? Fine if you can’t believe Baekje’s colonization of eastern china, we won’t believe Xia dynasty. Actually, name a RESPECTED WESTERN SCHOLAR who believes in that. Shang? Confucius’ 7th descendent (You are lucky I forgot the book name. i will find it and post it!) stated that it was built by East Yi people… guess who they are… Koreans! Ural Altaic northern brothers of Koreans joined too! Zhou? Eh, maybe. Then Chinese couldn’t even unite their nation for centuries. Oh by the way. The Dragon Emperor of Qin. Chinese historical books says he was Seo-Yoong, a westerner so not a Han chinese. Finally Han dynasty, which paid tribute to Xiongnu because your so-called hero Liu-bang lost to them. West han, let’s count that as han, same difference. Then three dynasties for few years then China is in turmoil! The Han Chinese are kicked to the north and Ural-Altaic people charge south! North Wei? It is not chinese, it is Xian-bei!
Later Yan? Xian Bei!!! And it got conquered by Korea’s Goguryeo too!
And all the Chinese northern dynasties were like that. Sui? The builder of sui dynasty was also… a Xian Bei!! HEHEHE!!! He was what, a prime minister of Xian bei nation, North Zhou! And you Chinese steal that history and say it is yours! Ok, just because those nations were built in China doesn’t mean you Han Chinese can claim it as yours. If you can do that, Stalin is American, Napoleon is German and Emperor Hirohito was Vietnamese. Hitler would be what a French? Nooooo! Hahahaha. The T’ang loyalty by the way was also Xian-bei blood! Oh yeah, Sui couldn’t even beat Korea with 1-5 million soldiers, and T’ang couldn’t conquer Goguryeo if it wasn’t for Silla. Next up is Sung… a weakling in Chinese history. Oh by the way, did you know emperor of Kim dynasty was from Silla, Korea? Yes he was! According to book of Kim and Book of Qing, it clearly states that. Oh are these fake books? Sorry but No. The emperors of both empires PERSONALLy led scholars to write these facts. So either they were idiots who raised the history of a nation smaller than them for no reason, or they were writing truth!
Next up is Liao…which belonged to Khitans duh. Kim? Combination of Korea and Mohe tribes. Yuan? The proud history of Mongols not Han Chinese. Finally Ming. Well Ming helped Korea during Imjin war so i won’t dis Ming, except remember, we helped you Han Chinese a lot during Ming Dynasty so be thankful to Koreans in that part too, Ok? We even sent almost all of our newly made musketeers to fight with you people, although unfortunately it got wiped out by Qing cavalry’s ambush and stuff. Anyway, next is Qing, which also clearly states that it was made by Manchu tribes, not Chinese. So when we wrap this up, how many “Powerful” Chinese nations were there? three. Yeah be proud of that. LOL
So let us return to Baekje. I am writing this in like five minutes so I will upload sources later. If you go to southern coast of eastern China, near border of Vietnam, there are people who use special device to crush rice and stuff. I forgot what it was called in English. It looks like See-saw. Well, unlike other countries’ similar device, the wooden column used to smash those rice and flour mixtures is only formed by one piece of wood instead of two. Yeah I am not a good…describer? anyway, this is only seen in Korean provinces where Baekje formerly stood.
The key hold shaped big tomb in japan. does it only exist in Japan? Many thinks so, but actually small verions of it can be easily seen in Korean regions where Baekje formerly stood.
The Chinese records state that Baekje had population numbering up to 6 million. Well, near 600 A.D, Goguryeo’s population was only about 3-4 million. How did a small nation like Baekje possibly have twice the size of Goguryeo’s population if it didn’t have any colonies out side? Goguryeo in 600s did shrink alot, but it was still powerful and strong. Strong enough to easily defeat 3 million soldiers from Sui.
Whoever here objects to the theory to Baekje’s colonization, listen and beware
Next time, I am bringing 100s of sources and more evidences from next time.
To Idiotic Koreans who dis their own history.
What good do you think you are doing to your nation? Think again. You are just making fool of yourselves. Plus, would you walk around the street with people thinking you as a person from an inferior race or a person from a country with history that once dominated the world? What is the use of comfortable life if you don’t have a nation? Don’t blabber things after reading few books. Those documenteries up there by the way, weren’t made by history nuts but proper TV station, evidences, researches and truth.
The old book of Tang also says
After Baekje fell, its territories were taken by Dolgual, Mohe and other continental nations. If Baekje didn’t have big naval territories, how would this happen?
Also in Book of Sui, it says that Baekje’s name came from having 100 states. That is twice the states U.S has! If Baekje was locked in Korea, this would have been impossible. Oh are these books fake? Well if they are, then prove Sima Qian’s records are right!!
To REX:
How much would Jonathan Best know? even if he is a great scholar, he only probably received fake history from Chinese and Japanese! Those two countries are still fabricating Korean history and are not letting any historians study archaeological items in Manchuria and Northern China that has close relation to Korea, because it just proves that Korean history is a superior as China’s or even better!I Examples? Balhae Empress’s tomb, Hongshan civilization pyramids, Hongshan civilization cities and alters and I can go on and on. But since I have to write my English essay… you are lucky.
Does a 14 year old like me have to fight for my country like this? China was not that strong people! Wake up! They never even barely touched Manchuria until Ming dynasty! They only lived under the great wall and now they claim even Goguryeo and Balhae, Buyeo, and Gojoseon as theirs! Hanja? We borrowed it so what? Now we have fur more better language with only 24 characters! jade artifacts? Chinese copied it from Korean civilization! (Hongshan civilization jade artifacts are much more close looking and related to Korean jade crafts INSIDE KOREAN PENINSULA). Gosh!
Evidence Finder and Shrekandy are the perfect examples of Korean internet nationalists – arrogant, insecure, ignorant of academic scholarship, and prone to insulting other people’s histories and cultures to satisfy their own wounded nationalism.
I’m sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously kids whose arguments consist of – well, nobody outside of Korea supports our ideas about East Asian history, but that’s because there’s this giant conspiracy against Korea by China and Japan whose propaganda convinced everyone in the world to not care about Korea.
Do you think scholars outside of Korea are that retarded? That the same scholars who see through Chinese and Japanese propaganda, who condemn Mao for being a mass murderer, who condemn Japanese aggression and atrocities during World War II, just happen to not see through this giant conspiracy against Korea?
That’s what’s retarded.
Korean nationalist propaganda is of the same form as Japanese and Chinese propaganda, and that is why no one outside of Korea – and indeed no one inside of Korea aside from nationalists – buys into it.
Dude, Thomas, You are doing the same thing dummy.
You make fun of Korea too. Isn’t that a bad thing? Duh
That makes you an extreme nationalist too, whatever your nationality is
You down grade Korean History like Shrekandy did to others so you should shut up too.
@Oh Canada
Refuting Korean ultra-nationalists is not the ‘same thing’ as making fun of Korean history. Your warped logic is tantamount to saying that opposing Nazis is the same as being a Nazi because in both cases you discriminate against a group of people. There is no moral equivalence here, and you insult the cause of objectivity by trying to draw a parallel between virulent nationalist revisionism and its opposition.
Dear Thomas
Please prove how Korea’s statement is wrong, China and Japan’s is right, as well as the opposite. Thank you.
In detail. That would be nicer. I just want to see whose is right or wrong. Please, don’t write things like because Korea was China’s servant for centuries because that is just biased.
And where are you from?
@Dragoooooo
Others have done it for me. Start with Jonathan Best, one of the foremost scholars of Baekje in the West, and see what he says about Baekje’s territorial holdings. Then ask yourself – which respectable international scholar supports Korean nationalists on this issue?
’nuff said. As for your other question, I’m from the US.
Hmmm. Interesting
Thomas do you have anyone else except Jonathan Best to support your reason because that is only 1 historian compared to like hundreds others in Asia who study Baekje. Plus, I don’t think he would know more about Baekje than ancient Chinese historians (the famous ones like who wrote book of tang and etc. ) or Korean scholars of the past who actually lived during the time of Baekje and all. Plus, if you do look at western history textbooks, they do downgrade Korean history a lot when it is wrong.And for your last question, no western historians are interested in Korean history (unfortunately) so they just tend to go with China’s explanation… Gosh I am in America too and some people think Samsung is Japanese and LG’s American!
Thomas.
I don’t think you can call Korean “web ultra nationalists” Nazi or compare it to them. Anybody can see in the above comments that some people (of which etnics i don’t know) really really downgraded Korean history calling them slaves of Chinese and Japanese. What Shrekandy did might be wrong if nobody downgraded Korea’s history like that, but since those possibly Chinese and Japanese ultra nationalists attacked Korean history first, you can’t say that Korean ultra-nationalists are like Nazi. Why do you not scold Chinese or Japanese Ultra nationalists? That is just unfair.
Can you oppose what those ancient CHINESE texts say about Baekje’s presence on the continent?
@Dragoooooo there aren’t ‘hundreds of scholars’ of Baekje who support the idea that Baekje’s territory included the eastern coast of China. There are *no* reputable scholars outside of Korea who support it, and mainstream Korean historians also *do not* support the idea. The burden of proof is not on me to falsify a ‘theory’ that has never passed peer review by people with far greater knowledge of the subject than people here. Want to know in detail about why Baekje didn’t include the east coast of China? Ask a history professor.
I cited Jonathan Best because, being the foremost expert on Baekje in the West, he is thoroughly familiar with the state of research both in Asia and in the West. That he doesn’t even bring up the possiblity of ‘Greater Baekje’ is telling. There are others who study Baekje in the West – for example, historical linguists such as Christopher Beckwith and archaeologists such as Gina L. Barnes – and they do not bring it up either. This is sufficient to show that Western scholars reject the idea.
You are free to believe whatever you want, but expecting others to believe the propaganda of a smattering of Korean nationalist ‘scholars’ is ridiculous.
@Hiya given the topic, it’s only logical that other people would respond by attacking Korean history. I don’t blame them for hitting back because they didn’t pull the first punch – Korean nationalists did by extending Baekje’s territory into their countries. Imagine a Japanese nationalist drawing a map of 6th century Japan that included Korea as one of its external colonies – what would you do?
As for ancient Chinese texts – none of them support the map of Baekje above. In fact, Chinese documents do not contain solid information about Baekje’s territories outside of the Korean peninsula. Why do you think historians who have studied the question of Baekje’s territorial extent in detail have never drawn such a map though the ancient Chinese documents have been available for 1000+ years? The attempt to stretch Baekje’s territorial extent is a modern project motivated by nationalism.
The map is also not backed by archaeological evidence – there are no remnants of Baekje outposts and garrisons in those territories, which makes an argument about Baekje colonization untenable. Worse, the bulk of the Chinese texts produced by Korean nationalists to support their ideas – ie the Book of Song, the Book of Qi, and the Book of Liang – only briefly mention Liaoxi – a territory in western Manchuria – being occupied by Baekje, and yet all of these texts were produced by the southern Chinese states. These states had no access to Liaoxi – they were based around the Yangtze River in southern China.
The northern Chinese states that did have access to Liaoxi do not mention Baekje’s expansion in their records. The lack of corroboration by texts written in states that were right next to the territories affected is a huge problem, because these states – and not states hundreds of miles away – are the ones with the best knowledge of those lands.
That’s one explanation for why scholars dismiss ‘Greater Baekje’; there are plenty of other explanations, including those given above by other commentators, but a lot of them require having in-depth knowledge of the subject, which none of you do. I have said enough about the subject, but for those who are willing to search for the answers that they want, there are avenues: proper research, backed by solid evidence and peer reviewed by international scholars. The history that is taught in school, in text books, and in the works of respectable international scholars earned its place. Do not blame people for rejecting arguments that have never been held to the same standard.
Last but not least – nobody intentionally downgraded Korea’s history in the West. There was a great deal of sympathy towards Korea in the West because of its occupation by Japan during WW 2, and today South Korea is a Western ally against China. Why, logically, would the West downgrade Korean history on behalf of the Japanese and the Chinese, both of whom were enemies of the West? This is a conspiracy theory of the worst sort.
That map is fake obviously. Goguryeo does have those territories but obviously not the islands. Buyeo should not be on there if Goguryeo had those territories. I do not believe that there is a West Baekje but Baekje probably had colonies in west Japan. People in West Japan still parade around for a Baekjean King and 2 of the Baekjean Kings died there after an assassination. Gaya and Silla might of had a few islands and colonies off Japan. At it’s height Goguryeo took Mohe,Khitain,Yan State,Buyeo State,Wa State, made Baekje a vessel,and made Silla a protectorate,
Korea has an incredibly rich history, and archeological evidence found in Korea and Russia is shedding new light on what we currently know about Northeast Asia. True, it is hard to analyze evidence from China. However, China has been active in trying to incorporate ancient Korean dynasties into the Chinese fabric as “ethnic groups”, in so doing preservation has often been the result, neccesarily trying to destroy historical remains. While it is true Korean history has often been diminished in the past. This is largely due to Imperial Japan’s attempt to eradicate evidence of Korean influence and historical remains. Only after South Korea’s development did many of the facts become better known.
Nevertheless, we cannot just assume or make broad claims that Korean dynasties held vast lands in Manchuria, Eastern China, and Japan. The evidence just does not support these claims to the extent previously argued here. Yet, do these historical inquiries deserve further research. Yes! It is clear that the Goguryeo dynasty extended well into parts of Manchuria. We also do know that remnants of the Baekje dynasty escaped to Japan, these remnants were important to the development of early Japanese dynastic regimes. Where the historical evidence becomes murky is Eastern China, there is no substantial evidence that supports these claims. Potentially could Baekje have held land in Shandong province, perhaps, but without more evidence, we must assume for for the time being that the Baekje dynasty was within the Korean peninsula.
Refrain from muddying the waters and broad brushing the subject. There is nothing ‘murky’ about the lack of evidence for Baekje’s ‘presence’ in Shandong. To the extent that a valid controversy exists, it is limited to Liaoxi, and there the evidence is indeed ‘murky’, but does help to explain that Baekje, which in Korean records is described as having branched out of Goguryeo, was once based in Manchuria – the same place from which Goguryeo came. There are also historical records that mention Baekje invading / occupying the area, albeit not corroborated by archaeology.
But for Shandong, there isn’t even a controversy because there are is no evidence – nothing in Chinese records, no archaeological evidence, no logical rationale for why Baekje would occupy Shandong but not even contest Liaodong with Goguryeo. Conflating the Liaoxi controversy with unsupported ideas about Baekje’s occupation of Shandong, over the Bohai Sea, is disingenuous. These are two separate ideas, with one being within the realm of argument between rational individuals, while the other belongs to the realm of nationalist fantasies. This article is about the latter, not the former, and therefore deserves all the criticism that it has received. The maps coolsmurf posted are utterly ridiculous and offensive to other people, and to say that they ‘do not twist history’ is extra irony on the cake.
Thomas and other people who say that there are no evidence:
How do you explain the evidence shown in the documentary? Why do those have to be ignored? Don’t they at least suggest that Baekje could’ve ruled or highly influenced those areas? Why is it that everyone think that if Chinese record say something it’s always right and if Korean record say something it’s always wrong? Might not be perfect but can’t it have some truths? Plus, I am pretty sure that those professors in Korea who support Baekje’s rule over Eastern coast of China probably did more research and analysis than anyone in this webpage, and have valid evidences and etc.
Why do people easily accept or become interested in the idea that Goguryeo might be (although it isn’t) Chinese, but never even think about the fact that Korea could have highly influenced other cultures too?
Why is it that just because that Chinese record deny something or does not mention something that the Korean record is wrong? If you guys keep claiming that Korean records are false, then why can’t be Chinese or Japanese records? Thomas and some other state that the Koreans here are crazy nationalists but have they seriously seen what the hack China and Japan is doing to Korean history right now? Even if the “crazy nationalists” are crazy, they are much more fewer in number than those of Chinese and Japanese. Hey go in youtube and you can lots of videos which Chinese or Japanese mock Korean but its quite (surprisingly) hard to find videos in which the Koreans mock both of them in history.
Seriously, there are so many Japanese or Chinese made videos that claim either Korean Kingdoms are actually theirs, or that they helped Korea progress. THere are some weirdos who say that this article shows Koreans’ imperialistic idea but HEY, THE FALSE IDEA THAT CHINESE AND JAPANESE RULED KOREA IS SPREAD ALL OVER AMERICAN HISTORY TEXTBOOKS, PUBLIC WEBSITES etc. This is nothing compared to other sites that Chinese and Japanese made to mock Korean history which number MULTIPLES more that those the Koreans made.
And Thomas, you say West did not downgrade Korean history (I’m sure probably not on purpose) but so many textbooks I saw in U.S. state that Korea was nothing but a servant like state of China. YOU WANT MORE? GLENCOE TEXTBOOK EVEN ASSERTS THAT JAPAN INFLUENCED KOREAN CULTURE FROM THE ANCIENT TIMES. WOW. SO THOSE JAPANESE TAUGHT KOREAN CULTURE WHEN KOREAN WERE ALREADY IN IRON AGE AND THEY WERE IN STONE AGE!
P.S. Are you really obsessed with this webpage? I mean, who really answers comments here even after years!?
I continue to answer the comments ‘after years’ because ignorant nationalists such as yourself keep popping out of the woodwork to challenge me ‘after years’. It’s not my style to let such challenges go unanswered.
As for your challenge, the video’s evidence is easily ignored because they were conducted with an agenda in mind, have tons of errors / exaggerations in them, and do not stand up to scrutiny. For example, in one of the videos it is said that the province of Jinping, said to have been captured by Baekje, was the Jinping in Quanzhou, inland Guangxi. Yet, it is obvious to people who know the texts that Jinping in 400-600 AD referred to a place around Liaoxi in southwestern Manchuria, not in *modern* Jinping, Guangxi. Guangxi was not even a province of China at the time.
Beyond that, the argument makes no geographical sense, because Guangxi was on the southern tip of China, while Liaoxi, the other region said to be governed by Baekje, was on the northeastern tip of China. For Baekje to have governed an inland region in Guangxi, it had to circumnavigate the entirety of China’s coast – a thousand miles of ocean – and set up an outpost in a remote corner of nowhere with all of China in between. How does a 5th century kingdom establish and govern an outpost thousands of miles away and for what purpose?
There is no logistical logic to the argument, no archaeological evidence, no ruins, nothing beyond misinterpreted topography.
I won’t bother with the rest of the videos, which are of a similarly poor quality, except to say that had the arguments contained valuable evidence, then they’d have been examined and evaluated by mainstream scholars by now. The fact that they aren’t shows that there isn’t even a controversy over them – they are flat out ignored by international experts. That alone is enough to show that they are bad arguments and that people who continue to repeat them are blind nationalists.
As for the rest of your comments, that’s just nationalist butthurt of the worst sort. So, people outside of Korea do not respect Korea to the same degree that they respect Japan and China, and in order to counter this, you bullshit about history to feel better?
Don’t pretend that people outside of Korea are all blinded by a grand conspiracy. When China tried to claim Goguryeo, guess what – international experts came out on Korea’s side, because Korea had the better argument. When Japan tried to whitewash its atrocities in Korea during World War II, the same thing happened – international experts came out on Korea’s side. Were international experts so willing to downgrade Korea, why did they support Korea on these issues?
But do you see a single international expert coming out on Korea’s side over this crap?
No?
Why do you think that is?
The arguments are crap, nobody in mainstream academia gives a crock about them, and no sources from mainstream academia are to be found in support of them. Were that to change, then there is room for argument. But in this situation it is quite obvious that the arguments are terrible and were produced by nationalists looking to deceive themselves and others with their nationalist agenda.
To Thomas
So, if there is no real material evidence, history is false. Nice. I guess Xia Dynasty and the figures who built Chinese culture (three lords and five emperors or something like that) is all just bullshit.
Just because something doesn’t sound possible doesn’t mean it can’t be true. Plus, Koreans (nationalists) do know that foreigners don’t have CONSPIRACY against Koreans. But you know why Koreans here are making such outrage? Because idiots like you pretend to know everything, pretend to know better than historians with shallow knowledge. Once, I even read about a Korean student who claimed he hated Korea just because he majored history in Japan (the professor was white and American). Do you think those historians in the documentaries did less research than you? If Korea was so overly nationalistic, than the whole country probably wouldn’t even be slowly losing history by China and Japan. Recently, they almost even lost Arirang to China. Koreans should be thankful to foreigners for saving Goguryeo from China? Hell, that stupid Unesco simply allowed China to register tons of Goguryeo relics as their own! This year American government recorded Chinese side of East Asian history into their historic record document or something and even after Korea’s argument they only stated that they will put Korea’s opinion in mind. Hell, what kind of material evidence to you need if Chinese, Korean written records, village artifacts and surviving tradition doesn’t work?
International scholars supported for Korea because of their better argument? SO now a country needs good tongue to protect one’s true history huh?
If a Kingdoms in 5th century couldn’t sail around China, than how the hell would have Greeks colonized up to Spain with those days technology, centuries before Baekje? You know what, I don’t believe in Viking going to North America, nor Christopher Columbus going to America. As if their ships were like modern ships.
You are a prime example of why Korean nationalists are ignorant.
First, the Xia Dynasty, Three Lords, and Five Emperors of China are *not* accepted by mainstream academia – and yes, it’s because of the lack of material evidence. Chinese culture, insofar as academics are concerned, is a carryover of Neolithic interactions and developments – not the product of fictional emperors and mythical beings. Pick up an academic level history book and read it before you spew bullshit about topics you have no knowledge of, because the example you gave contradicts your own argument.
Second, it is a sad state of affairs, but I DO know a lot better about these topics than Korean ‘scholars’ – aka ‘TV professors’ – who engage in fringe revisionism, the equivalent of Gavin Menzies in the West. Just because a person is called a ‘scholar’ and holds a degree does not imply that he is fit to the task. There are plenty of ‘scholars’ among Afrocentrists, Holocaust deniers, Communist propagandists and, yes, Korean nationalists, who have no credibility whatsoever. When cult leaders such as Hong Beom Rhee and the Hannists are allowed to publish books stating that all East Asian cultures were created by Koreans, who had a continent spanning empire in 8,000 BC, it’s obvious that simply being a ‘scholar’ is worthless in Korean terms. This is also why the qualification of being an internationally credited academic is necessary – though not sufficient – for being an authority on a subject.
As for the ‘China is stealing our history’ butthurt coming out of you, that’s rich given the reputation Korean nationalists have gained for stealing other people’s history and heritage. What goes around comes around, I suppose. But the main difference between the cases you listed and the cases here is that there are internationally credited academics involved in that issue, while here nobody in academia even gives a damn about what Korean ‘TV professors’ have to say, attested by the absence of papers regarding these topics in major journals and textbooks.
Speaking of ignorance and pretending to know, the American government did not ‘record the Chinese side of history’ into their historic documents. This is another prime example of the idiocy of Korean nationalists. What the American government did do is record the Northeast China Project’s stance on Goguryeo into a report about issues affecting East Asians. It is obvious that to describe China’s diplomatic row with Korea over the Northeast China Project, setting down the Northeast China Project’s stance towards Goguryeo is mandatory and does not involve America ‘taking sides.’ But it turns out, Korean nationalists are insecure enough that they believe just the act of writing out the Chinese stance in an American government document gives the Chinese side authority. This is, of course, absurd, but it makes for a great headline in Korean media.
Lastly, differences between European and Korean maritime technology aside, nobody said that Baekje couldn’t sail around China. The argument is that they didn’t colonize a remote province in south China – because there is no material evidence, no logistical justification for having a far flung colony in the INLAND of Guangxi while ignoring everything in between, and involves a classic misreading of Chinese records that have long been exposed for what it is. When your ‘material evidence’ consists of declaring that a grinding stone found in a modern village THREE HOURS’ drive away from the site is ‘Korean’ after admitting that nothing was found around the site itself, there is a huge, gaping hole in your argument. Koreans have immigrated to China at various times in the past. Going to one such village and saying that you found ‘Korean’ artifacts there, and therefore Korea ruled that region of China, is comically inept and the equivalent of saying that Korea ruled the west coast of America because you found Korean artifacts in Koreatown.
But that is only one example. The rest of the arguments – beyond those offered for Liaoxi, which HAVE been discussed in academic circles before – are just as terrible. For example, using titles granted by *southern* Chinese dynasties that *never* had control of north China to argue that territories in *north* China were under the control of Baekje governors. Did it never cross your mind that a state isn’t able to give away territory that it doesn’t have, and that the absence of such records in the states that did control these territories is far better counter evidence?
Trying to draw an analogy to the well documented, archaeologically validated, and logistically continuous expansion of the Greeks across the Mediterranean coast, which is backed by mainstream, internationally credited academic support, is nonsensical and simply demonstrates desperation. A better analogy is with Gavin Menzies’s ridiculous notion that China colonized the Americas.and jump started the Renaissance in the 1400s. That has no material support, either, and is just as based on misreadings and exaggerations of indirect sources. In fact, that sums up these Korean ‘arguments’ quite well.
That second man of East Asia is horrible. Even the most extreme koreans would not agree with it. No, that map gives a bad image to the rest of the reasonable historians. In reality, east baekje would contain the shandong peninsula, laoxi, and some portions south of the peninsula. There is scattered records of Kaya remains in Okinawa, and some Shilla immigrants in Japan. It is important to note that Koguryo and Baekje’s borders first touched in that region by the shandong , and have been fighting over the shandong and laoxi territory ever since, to gain control of the Yellow sea. This was very possible due to the numerous divisions in mainland china itself. It is also important to note that Japan was like Baekje’s commonwealth.Throughout its military history, legions of japanese warriors reinforced the Baekje army during its battles against Koguryo and other nations, and even when Baekje was overrun by Tang and Shilla forces, Japanese warrors continued to land and attempt to take back Baekje.
All this talk is really futile because no one is going to be convinced unless someone invents the time machine and makes a documentary. Korea has been usually on the losing side of historical claims due to much more pressing matters (economy, diplomatic relations). 200o year old history aside, for everything to go back to honest and legal again, Japan would have to return numerous artifacts it had stolen, CHina would have to give back West and North Gando(strip of land over north korea that originally was part of the Korean Empire then given to china by japan), Russia would have to give back that strip of land at the tip of eastern north korea (given to russia by japan), but that would piss everyone off and Korea isnt even united, so its pathetic to make such claims.XD Like even if they win the arguments, who gets the land, North or South? Obviously,, history is Written by the Victors, and Korea has been everything but. It is Sad. But apart from disagreements over history, which tend to spark cursing and trolling, Korea gets along with Both china and japan economically and culturally, and at least we have that!
Most schools learn Chinese and Japanese as second foreign language(next to English), and there are some attempts to create a standardized history textbook of east asia between the 3 nations, like how France and Germany is doing, but that will take some time…..Asians just want to be acknowledged by the western community…its sad….Asian historians can’t trust each other so they have to rely on western historians…Why can’t people just let it be? Oh wait…..DongBukGongJung
To add, there was too much record burnings. 1. Shilla forces burned Baekje relics when they conquered it. 2. Tang burned, stole some more artifacts. 3. During Imjin war, a whole bunch of records bruned (by korean citizens) when palace burned.. Japan stole, burned, hid, distorted even more during occupation. Its surprising whatever s left even exists at all.
Thomas… You don’t know sarcasm do you… I know Xia is not completely acknowledged by historians and I know that Christopher Columbus went to America and Greeks colonized along the Mediterrenean. Your response was so hilarious but it also shows that there is no point in arguing with a person like you.
Really, i don’t care if Baekje actually colonized China or Japan. However, as a Korean student in America,the AP History textbooks that includes the idea that Japan colonized southern tip of Korea, the idea that China’s great wall of China extended to Pyong Yang, and Han Dynasty controlled the whole of Korea, should also include stories about the possibility of Baekje’s expansion toward these two countries, as well as significance of Goguryeo’s power and such.
My AP World History textbook located Pyongyang inside Manchuria… years after Gojoseon…LOL American history textbook authors are obviously very biased toward some countries. Not just Korea but other countries too.
@antman the standard rhetorical tactic of Korean nationalists is that a claim is ‘very possible’ while completely failing to provide solid evidence for it. This is a severe flaw. A lot of things are ‘very possible’ when your a prior assumption is that ‘all the records and evidences proving it were destroyed.’ Further, while there is nothing wrong with saying that history is full of uncertainties and that arguments over the specifics are normal, the self serving nature of Korean nationalist scholars – who only ever glorify Korea at the expense of other countries – undermine their neutrality and objectivity. This nationalist mode of argument is simply not valid and it is why Korean nationalist scholars have had a terrible reputation in academia.
There is no solid evidence that Baekje and Goguryeo ever controlled the Shandong peninsula, so stating that Baekje and Goguryeo ‘fought over it’ is ridiculous. Even for Liaoxi there is a great deal of controversy. Jonathan Best, the foremost expert on Baekje in the West, has a section near the end of his book talking about the Liaoxi claim where he concludes that it is not trustworthy. Unlike you, my sources are not nationalist videos, but historians of the highest caliber.
As for your comments about Korean relations with China and Japan and the need to use Western sources, it is obvious that this has to do with the inability of nationalist scholars from all three countries to be neutral / objective. Korea is not an exception / victim in this, especially as Korea, despite being the victim of Japanese colonialism, chose to build its nationalist historiography on the model set by Japanese colonial scholars – see Hyung Il Pai for my reference. Go ahead and research Korean nationalist historiography to see how far Korean nationalist scholars have gone to nurse their wounded pride. The reputation Korean nationalists have gained for self serving history revisionism is well earned and none of it – not even the ‘less extreme’ versions they try to sell to the greater public – ought to be accepted.
@Heol I understood the gist of your response just fine. As for the value of argument – there is no value to argument when one side, in this case yours, is so deluded. I add to my previous comments the following link: http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2012/12/23/43/0301000000AEN20121223001151315F.HTML. It is exactly as I said: Korea nationalists such as yourself thought the US was endorsing the Chinese version of Goguryeo history, when in fact all the US was doing was compiling a report on the controversy. This combination of ignorance and an exaggerated victim complex is, indeed, hilarious.
If there WAS a smoking gun for all of this, this would not be discussed in some forum! If there WAS solid evidence, and if all the reputed scholars in the world agreed to West Baekje, then it would be in all of the history books in the world! Duh! Apparently, it is NOT, and thus, with that established, it is impossible to discuss anything without ramming into “oh, its not in the books, so it must not be true”
@Thomas
With that in mind, I have to commend your citations of various sources, since I’m usually too busy to go that deep. Do you work in the historical field?
@antman you declare that West Baekje exists, full stop, and then when challenged fall back on ‘I was just discussing?’ That’s rather disingenuous. There are degrees of proof. For example, scholars disagree to this day where the Indo-Europeans came from and whether they were farmers vs. nomads. That’s an issue in which both sides have presented plenty of solid evidence, but in which no agreement has been reached due to legitimate conflicts over the methodology and the data.
West Baekje is a rather fringe argument, not close to the level where you get to pull out the ‘it isn’t agreed upon but it’s solid’ line of rhetoric. The issue isn’t even a controversy among international scholars because the evidence for it is so flimsy. You don’t need to have consensus among scholars to have an argument, but you need to, at the minimum, have scholarly, peer reviewed sources arguing the cause. Otherwise, you have nothing of worth, in which case trying to present it as ‘fact’ makes you a delusional nationalist. Certainly, fictional K dramas do not suffice for solid evidence, nor does jebusrocks posting on a forum, nor do nationalist videos that try to grasp at what is not there. Don’t get me started about using evidence of medieval Korean immigrant communities in other countries as proof of Baekje imperial control.
To answer your question, I currently do not work in the history field, but I am also not a neophyte to this line of research, nor would I comment had I been. In today’s world, there is enough publicly available information – especially for those willing to procure a cheap academic account for accessing papers – that there is no excuse for ignorance. Approach topics with objectivity and respect towards others, and see it returned. Approach them with bias, disrespect, and a high horse victim complex, and see *that* returned.
I would like to say a few words to objectively address this debate. Firstly, has anyone read Atlas of Korean History? This is an official atlas by the Korea Institute of National Education, produced after years of thorough and careful historiographical and archaeological research. On pp.40-41, Baekje’s External Relations, it is stated that the alleged colonisation of eastern China is “hard to accept as actual fact”. In fact, in all the maps in the book, there is NO indication whatsoever that Baekje held territory in east China. The political borders of various Korean dynasties and states as presented in these maps have been officially endorsed as accurate, and have been replicated in places such as the War Memorial Museum in Seoul. I believe that this is the right stance we should take, one that has been officially endorsed by the Korean government.
To Rex
many people mistake that historical theories given by official Korean institutions are correct but many of them are not. Korea is a country where its own history is not even properly taught to the students. Unlike in U.S where there short 250 year history is taught even in AP level, Korean education departments as well as schools don’t teach Korean history to students because they have to study math, English, etc. Also, many of the descendants of national traitors who worked for Japan during the Japanese Occupation of Korea (during WWII) are currently heads of numerous important Korean institutions, including Korea’s best University, Seoul University. Thus, many Korean history books by national institutions compress and downgrade the Korean history. This is not a fabricated fact. I thought many foreigners already knew about this but obviously not.
To Rex
You are also wrong if you think that the Korean government is doing anything to protect Korean history. China and Japan have been distorting Korean history for years now, but the government never fought them back seriously. Every time, Korean civilians had to group and fight them. Recently, the cultural department of the Korean government even covered an important archaeological site (a Baekje city site that had all the roads and stuffs well preserved) back with dirt because they had to make a tunnel below it. Seriously, they dumped the whole archaeological site for a stupid tunnel. Now we can’t even fully restore it. That is the reality of the Korean government, and the data they give is, not 100%, but in many ways, not that reliable. They always condense Korean history.
Sorry to go on by finally. Once, a Russian historian, Yuem Buzzin (that’s how its pronounced in Korean), said in an history seminar:
If you exclude Dangun Joseon (first Korean nation built) from ancient East Asian history, you can not understand Asian history.That is how important Dangun Joseon is is Asian ancient history. But I don’t understand why Korea denies such a significant history. China and Japan even make up non existing history, but why do Koreans deny the history (of Dangun Joseon) that obviously existed? I cannot understand this nation.
I think you are a Korea, Rex, so you can see this article in http://cafe.daum.net/molanthro/I4rp/102?docid=1OnvNI4rp10220121125123236
This is how untrustworthy Korean OFFICIAL history books etc. are. They are still created by the descendants of those who betrayed Korea for Japan. Thank you.
For those who say West Baekje did not exist because there are not many archaeological evidence:
I don’t believe in it 100% either, but think about it this way. When Baekje colonized parts of Eastern China, those Chinese cities and states were already very developed and had their own, advanced culture. There would have been no need for Baekje to pass on their daily items, architectural styles etc. to the colonized Eastern China. For example, When Napoleon conquered Europe, other European nations did not suddenly went into drinking wines, snails, or frog legs. In the Roman times it would have been different because the cultural gap between Rome and its neighbors were too great (except Mediterrenean nations). I think that could have been why not much archaeological sites are found in Eastern China that Baekje colonized in ancient texts. There was no need for Baekje to bring new items! In Japan’s case, it was different obviously and that is why we can find so many Korean style Baekje artifacts in Japan.
I like this historical discussion. Very good. Although I stand antipodal to Thomas in my opinion, I like his arguments and tenacity.
@ LOLA official Korean history is itself a highly politicized, nationalist, and revisionist project, observed and criticized by leading international scholars ie Sarah M. Nelson, Hyung Il Pai, and Shin Gi-Wok for its overt nationalism and ethno-favoritism – and that’s OFFICIAL Korean history I’m talking about. I dare not imagine what sort of twisted fantasies plague the amateur nationalist who think the Korean government is downgrading Korean history, though comments from Korean posters here have given me an inkling of the farce. When everyone is against you and you have to come up with conspiracy theories in order to explain why your version of history isn’t accepted, that normally says you’ve got a problem. Forget the Korean government and look around you – is there a single scholar outside of Korean nationalist circles who buy this? Why not? Because the whole world conspires to downgrade lil ol’ Korea?
@ REX it is disturbing to me that an official history book even addresses this argument, given that international scholars elsewhere don’t even give it the time of day for lack of solid evidence. Still, I do wonder about what territories they’re talking about – ie whether it’s the conservative idea about Liaoxi instead of that ridiculous Baekje federal kingdom map. Not having the book handy, I’m hoping you’re able to tell me so I know how deep this hole goes. Thanks.
@ LOLA your idea of archaeological absence runs contrary to basic logic, which is that in order to colonize a territory you have to exert military control of it, leading to the creation of garrisons which have to house soldiers from the colonizing country and their belongings. Further, when a territory is colonized, there is a spurt of personnel migration from the colonizing country and these people, being from a different country, bring with them artifacts from that country. This has nothing to do with whether the local culture is advanced – the Mongols, Manchus, etc. were all less advanced than the Chinese, yet all of them are traceable through the material artifacts they brought into China.
Further, you make basic history mistakes. Napoleon never colonized Europe. He conquered it briefly – for a period of about ten years – and the bulk of his territory outside of France were satellite states rather than colonies. There is a major difference between an European ruler taking up multiple monarchial titles and a colonial empire. France DID have the latter – for example in Africa, and those colonies DID contain French artifacts.
To this end, while you enjoy arguing with me, the opposite is not the case – your arguments bespeaks of an a priori conclusion rather than an objective mind, and I rather not waste my time with a nationalist who fails to observe the rule of Occam’s Razor – to not make convoluted arguments when simplicity prevails.
@ LOLA has it ever occurred to you that you don’t understand not because it’s wrong, but because you simply fail to understand? The evidence against the existence of Dangun Joseon is plentiful – for example, mainstream scholars have worked out that the Dangun myth came from a small region in northeast Korea and was not known by the bulk of Koreans till the medieval period. That the kingdom’s founding was dated via the timeline of Chinese myths is evidence that the periodization was made up, and that Dangun Joseon was not what the myths say it was.
Yet, despite this there are Korean nationalist scholars willing to stake their whole lives to arguing that the Dangun Joseon myth stands and that it = the Liaoning Bronze Dagger Culture. Nevermind that the LBDC is 1500 years after the 2333 BC given for Dangun Joseon. Nevermind that the LBDC rose in west Manchuria and spread to Korea, while Dangun Joseon was said to have risen in Korea and spread to Manchuria. Nevermind that Dangun never appeared in early Chinese records even though, according to Korean nationalists, his kingdom spanned hundreds of miles across the northeastern frontier of China and was the largest state in East Asia.
You don’t see how absurd this is, but the rest of the world does, and that’s why Dangun Joseon is called a myth in Korean textbooks. It’s not because the Korean traitors are out to get you. It’s because level headed Koreans don’t want to be the laughing stock of the international community for authorizing such a myth.
Thomas
If Dangun joseon is not real, give me some explanation about Hongshan civilization. Plus, Gojosoen does appear in various Chinese history texts. Some even say that Confucius even wanted to live there whether true or not.
If LOLA’S French example is not enough, let’s see England and India. Certainly, India did absorb some of British culture, but not that significantly. They did not suddenly convert to Christianity or wear British clothes. Some minority maybe, but certainly not the majority. Since Britain couldn’t influence a country with a completely different culture that much in daily life patters, then isn’t it understandable that the Chinese in places like Shandong etc. didn’t follow Korean ways of life? Plus, many Brits did go to India but did significant amount of them went there enough to change the country? Ok, maybe the population gap was too big but than how about Germany and few German colonies in Africa? Barely any Germans moved there, just the military. The population difference between Germany and those African nations wouldn’t have been that big. African people in those former German colonies don’t follow any German ways of life. But they were colonies.
About the Korean politicians, most of them are not level headed like you said. Globally, lots of countries, even many people in Japan, are telling the Japanese government to apologize to East Asian nations for its war crime, but currently, Korea is not doing anything. Those retarded politicians just care about their money. And did you not read what LOLA said about those politicians covering up the whole archaeological site for a tunnel? How would people respond if the Mexican government ordered the destruction of Mayan or Aztec archeological sites for a damn tunnel?
@papaya
Hongshan civilization thrived from 5000 BC to 3000 BC, missing Dangun Joseon by 700 years. Further, Hongshan started in Liaoxi and not the Korean peninsula. Its predecessor cultures – Xinlongwa, Zhaobaugou, and Xinle – were all in Liaoxi. There is no archaeologist outside of Korea who thinks Hongshan = Dangun Joseon.
Your comment about England and India betrays a deep ignorance. You do understand that English is a national language in India today precisely because of the British Empire? Is/was Korean a regional language in Shandong? Further, while Indians did not completely adopt British culture, material artifacts dating to the British Empire are plentiful – from British technology to writing to architecture built by the colonial administration. The analogy fails completely.
Not to mention, this whole business with trying to use the model of European colonies to describe ancient kingdoms in East Asia is ridiculous from the start, and this again is a product of the ignorance of Korean nationalists such as yourself. Historical relations between states and territories in East Asia were very different from the European notion of nation-states. For example, the whole idea that West Baekje existed in Shandong is based on an *honorary title* granted by the Emperor of China to the Baekje King, who in the process of requesting the title, symbolically submits himself to be a vassal of the Chinese emperor. Now, tell me how exactly a this is equivalent to the British case? Of course, flaws abound in even the *honorary title*, but I’ve commented on that already.
For your comment about the Korean government conspiracy, I refer you to this, with the understanding that there’s a lot to be found where it came from –
http://english.cntv.cn/program/asiatoday/20130422/107237.shtml
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201305080071
Sounds to me the Korean politicians are criticizing Japan just fine, but of course conspiracy theorists and ultra-nationalists ignore this in favor of their victim complex.
EXPLAIN THE GERMAN CASE I ALREADY SAID THAT THE ENGLISH-INDIAN CASE MAYBE BIASED, I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE GERMAN COLONIES! And Yeah I know Hongshan culture started in Liaoxi. So? Ancient Koreans occupied that region for a long time. Gojoseon didn’t even occupy the full Korean peninsula. About the Korean government, I didn’t say that it was conspiring against the people. I said they are effortless in trying to protect the country’s history compared to other nations’ government. You think two articles prove your point? Go to Korean website Naver if you can speak Korea and you will see how far behind Korea government is in trying to protect its history. They are not conspiring, they are just selfish. Plus, respond to the case when the politicians destroyed the archeological site for a tunnel. I can’t look at every single comments you made so show me some things about that honorary titles. By the by, those honorary titles don’t even really mean anything. For example, by theory, Liao Empire was a lower country that Song and called it the older brother nation but the former was far more stronger than the latter. You are not answering my question fully at all.
@papaya The German African colonies all left archaeological artifacts – European weapons, fortifications, ports and technologies.
You are mistaken about ancient Koreans occupying Liaoxi during the Hongshan period. There is not a shred of evidence for this. You have failed to respond to why there is a 700 year gap between the 2,333 BC founding of Joseon by Dangun and Hongshan culture, which perished in 2,900 BC. The Dangun myth does not say that Dangun came from Liaoxi; it says that he came from Mt. Baekdu. His area of interaction in the Korean myth was obviously the Korean peninsula, and not Liaoxi. There is no mainstream scholar who thinks that Gojoseon / Dangun Joseon = Hongshan culture; it is an idiocy specific to Korean nationalists.
Archaeological sites are destroyed for modern buildings all the time. Every developing country does it. Stating that this is equivalent to the Korean government failing to protect its history is absurd. The Korean government raised loud objections at China’s attempt at incorporating Goguryeo into its history and launched multiple campaigns to stop it. The only difference between the Korean government and you is that you are deluded by your ultra-nationalist fantasies into thinking that Korean history is greater than it is. The Korean government, by contrast, takes the mainstream, moderate view.
In your final comment about honorary titles, you state that honorary titles ‘dont even really mean anything.’ Unfortunately for you, the ONLY argument that Baekje occupied territories in eastern China comes from an honorary title that ‘dont even really mean anything.’ There are no other records, no archaeological evidence, no corroborating evidence from the respective governments.
You’ve just shown yourself why the argument fails.
Well, you know why the Jin Emperor burned so much of ancient Chinese history books. It won’t do at all with mandate from heaven if the past Chinese ancestors were recorded as having to “bow to the East” in their inaugurations.
By the way, many Korean koreans don’t even give a damn about their own history. First of all, not many speak English well enough to post their comments online. Second, they are not interested at all because they are too busy trying to be #1 in their class, and Korean history is not a necessary subject to be admitted to prestigious universities. The older Koreans have grown all their lives under military dictatorship whose leaders used to be officials under Japaneses rule themselves, so duh, proper history education was not on their priorities.unless it somehow justified their rule. Rather, it was the North Koreans who took more interest in Korean history in the late 20th century. However, one president did something right in 2007 term. Finally. The history books were restructured and there were may efforts to put things right. However, the president after him undid virtually everything (he was born in Japan) and things turned very right-wing. However, I did find that in the high school korean textbook, there is mention of king Geunchogo’s expansions during the golden age of Baekje, which included, among invasion of Mahan states in the south and Assault on Koguryo up to Pyongyang, the expansion into Laoxi area. The Baekje had a base there since King Gosi’s time (2 generations before) but this was the only thing that was actually mentioned. Still, it was something.
And believe it or not, Koguryo first met Baekje in the mainland side of the yellow sea, not the peninsula. Koguryo and Baekje had been fighting over the Laoxi area over Shandong peninsula ever since, until the Sui took over the rest of Baekje land on the mainland side.
“The Korean government raised loud objections at China’s attempt at incorporating Goguryeo into its history and launched multiple campaigns to stop it. ”
I think loud objections are a rather feeble attempt to express Korea’s grievances to such an alarming situation. While China takes Arirang as chinese culture and Japanese takes Kimchi as their traditional food, Korea has done nothing much.
@antman there is no evidence whatsoever that Goguryeo and Baekje fought over the Shandong Peninsula, nor is it sufficient to say that the Chinese burned the records because first, the lack of archaeological evidence validates the absence of written evidence, and second, there’s no motivation for the Sui to not record their victories over Baekje had it happened.
Indeed, Sui political authority was based on having unified China after three hundred years. Had they driven Baekje off Chinese land, there is every cause for them to record and propagate their triumphs.
The idea that Baekje occupied Chinese land for 300 years from the time of King Gosi to the Sui is absurd. How is it that 300 years of occupation resulted in no material evidence? Do you know why historians accept the Han Dynasty ruled North Korea via the Lelang commandary despite protests from revisionist Korean writers? Because there IS archaeological evidence – tablets and artifacts carrying the names and titles of Han Dynasty officials, Han Dynasty style tombs and burials, weapons, etc. found all around Pyongyang, not to mention contemporary Han Dynasty records of cultures in South Korea that go hand in hand with a presence in North Korea.
Where is the equivalent for Baekje’s 300+ occupation of Chinese land? That long of a duration ought to result in an abundance of material artifacts showing Baekje rule and political records of that rule from neighboring states, yet we find none. We also find no Baekje records / steles for such victories.
The rest of your assertions are simply baseless statements about how Koreans do not care about their own history. That has to be the most ludicrous idea I’ve ever heard. For one thing, the Korean media is obsessed with history – which is why they continue to protest every move by the Japanese to revise its WW 2 past. For another, Korean history is tightly coupled with Korean nationalism, which was the single greatest political force in Korea after the end of World War II. Revisionist history writers ie Sin Chae-ho were instrumental to the founding of the Korean nation via their theories of minjok and racial struggle. This is why it is still widely believed in Korea that Korean history began with Gojoseon and Dangun, the central figures in Sin Chae-ho’s new historical construction in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
But that’s getting off topic. The bottom line in all this is that you have neither material evidence nor academic source supporting your ideas. Repeating a falsehood a thousand times does not make it less false. I recommend that, absent of material evidence and academic sources, you stop trying to beat a dead horse because this is going nowhere when all you’re doing is repeating what you said months ago with no greater support than you had then.
Ahhh ever the true Thomas. I knew you would return shortly to entertain me. hehe
Look at it this way.South Korea has to save all its nationalism, hate, and ugliness for NORTH KOREA. And still this is not enough. Whatever remedial attempts korea does regarding history is pushed by Civilian organizations. There are 2 main reasons why a nation would try to emphasize or even distort national history.
1. To justify political moves such as land grab and colonialism.
2. For the sake of learning itself.
Now give it a thought. China has a good reason to distort history. It is such good reason that the entire Chinese government is open arms to it. China wants to justify its dominance of The area above North Korea where lots of Koreans have lived for centuries but were given to the Chinese by Japanese during occupation. What better way to stifle dissent among “Manchurian Koreans” than erasing their roots? This motive is so great that the Chinese government, which is BIG, forms new directives to somehow make Koguryo a part of Chinese history.
Japan. This is a no brainer. “We were your overloads in the past when you were puny so we can be your overlords now.” Its an easy task really. Just rub out some inscriptions on Gwangeto Obelisk and burn some records that say anything favorable about ancient Korean history. A task made doubly easier when the Japanese practically ruled the whole peninsula PLUS some areas in China where valuable korean records would be kept. Still, I have to give the Japanese a point for proclaiming that the Japs were #1 race and the Koreans #2 race. (Chinese #3)That means both the Koreans and the Chinese are higher up in the gene pool than the French, the Anglo Saxons, or even Hitler’s Aryan race . Now that’s GOOD fabrication. hehe.
South Korea: Doesn’t even the name itself betray its resolve? How can SOUTH Korea possibly speak for Koguryo, First and Second Josen,, Koyro, Silla, Baekje, and Korean Empire? How can there be a political purpose for any historical expeditions by the Koreans? Does SOUTH Korea want to reclaim Gando, the rightful Korean territory in south Manchuria? Heck, its not even connected to the country! Does SOUTH Korea want to steal any Japanese islands by claiming historical legitimacy? It’s the other way around! Now here is the catch. Japan is Korea’s only ally in Asia in case of a second Korean War. China is just really really big and South Korea doesn’t have the luxury of being on an island. This makes pissing off the Chinese a very bad idea. And it’s little things like this that pisses off the Chinese. Not only that, if you piss off the Chinese government, the Party requires the people to be pissed off as well. THis generally pisses of f 1/3 of the world population and they refuse to buy Korean products. Very Bad.
Now, is there still a reason for the Korean government to pursue ambitious historical revisions?
Maybe, Maybe not. However, remember one thing. If the Korean government actually manages to directly push such reforms, it means that the guys at the top gathered a whole lotta balls to do that.
Kudos! I like talking to you.
“There are 2 main reasons why a nation would try to emphasize or even distort national history.
1. To justify political moves such as land grab and colonialism.
2. For the sake of learning itself.”
3. To improve the external image of the country, and the internal pride of the populace.
Koreans are known to be one of the most image conscious peoples in the world and one of the most emphatic about ethnic pride. The bulk of Korean history revisionism is designed towards these two purposes, and they are what is emphasized by the Korean media and Korean nationalist scholars.
It is also this form of revisionism that is most popular among Korean civilians and netizens, which is why we see it all the time on the internet – including at this site. Your brand of revisionism is effectively this, which is why you went on a massive rant about how Koreans are innocent victims, and about how you enjoyed that Koreans were held above the Europeans in Japanese racial theories.
Such vanity only embarrasses Korea in the eyes of the international intelligentsia, which is why the Korean government and official institutions – which have to interact with the international intelligentsia and is held to an international standard – does not engage in it, while the Korean media and civilians – who are held only to their own standard and are content to circle jerk among themselves – do.
I don’t speak on the behalf on the Korean population. In fact, none of the “korean” netizens do. It is interesting that korean identity only surfaces once you have been outside of korea for a while. Aka Korean Americans. There is no embarrassment…its the internet! It’s good that you’ve adjusted your perception regarding more civilian-based activities as opposed to government activities.
The part about Japanese racial philosophy was more of a joke. I’ve not done any rant on Koreans being innocent victims. How can they be innocent when the world was a brutal food chain in the 1900s? The rabbit is not innocent that it is eaten by a fox. But now it is different. the nations cannot live in a food chain, as there will be much waste and misery. It should be moving for a more cooperative effort between the shark and the cleaning fish.
You try too hard to twist my words into something sinister, but why not just take a step back for once?
Twist? I judge you for what you say. You were the one insisting on revisionist history distortions, and when challenged, backtrack into an absurd victim argument about how Koreans have no cause for revisionism while Chinese and Japanese do.
Saying that I’ve adjusted my perception regarding the Korean government is yet another distortion. From the start, I’ve attributed the revisionism to Korean nationalists and media. However, the Korean government did coin the current version of Korean history, which was founded upon the nationalist history of the 20th century developed by people ie Sin Chae-Ho, and on the basis of Japanese sponsored ideological constructs ie race theory.
A solid outline of this process in English is found in Hyung Il Pai’s Constructing Korean Origins. You are advised to peruse it.
Well, the Japanese version of Korean history was pure shit. There is nothing wrong with a country writing its own history for once. When American publishers asked for Korea’s account of their history in the 1970s, there was no response. So they had to rely on Japanese versions alone.
Really, Japanese version of Korean history was outright laughable. Obviously there needed some minor revisions. Or are you saying it was better to let a foreign nation to take care of a nation;s history? I never heard of such a case anywhere.
What are you talking about? Koreans wrote their own history. It used Japanese ideological constructs ie the fixation on race, but it was written by Koreans.
Wow. So much pettiness!
I came across this website while trying to find some info on the extent of Baekje. You see, I am an American that kind of accidentally starting watching a KBS historical drama on a small local station’s broadcast. It has led me to explore the ancient history of the Korea, northeastern China, and the northern steppe areas. I’ve even started to learn the Hangul alphabet. I want to learn Chinese, too, because my young son plays with a girl whose parents are from China and speak very limited English. I thought it would be nice to try to meet them halfway, language-wise, so that we could chat. Because, like many Americans (but certainly not all), I enjoy exploring other cultures.
That’s what blows my mind reading post after post here. People still holding grudges with their neighboring countries because of events that happened in the past – most of it very distant past, even over a thousand years ago! It’s good to be proud of your heritage, your culture, and your country, but I see it taken to extremes here in these comments. In America (small factions of racist jerks aside) we harbor no ill will to the British from whom we gained independence a mere 237 years ago. No hard feelings for the French or Spanish or Portuguese who also had claimed stakes here and fought to retain them. The Germans – first mercenaries for the Brits during our revolution for independence, then of course as Nazis – no grudges. Nor for the Italians or Japanese for taking part in WWII, veterans of which war still are still alive today to remember. Heck, colonists and native Americans slaughtered each other but we’re working it out. Maybe we are pretty good at getting past the nationalism because we’ve come from all over the world and shared our cultures and (my favorite part) our foods and have married each other and live and work and go to school with each other and get to know each other as individuals. Please don’t let the past hamper your present or future.
Well said, Betsy. But at the same time, I think it’s the duty of responsible netizens to not let nationalist revisionism take the place of scholarship. The internet has greatly facilitated the spread of knowledge, but at the same time, it has allowed a wider ear to fringe narratives. It is important that current and future generations are able to distinguish between nationalist fantasies and peer reviewed scholarship. That has been my purpose here – for the easiest way for falsehoods to prevail is when no one speaks out against them.